E85Forum.com

SatngerX · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 8

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Has anyone had this happen it gells up and leans it out. It was only setting for a week. Also it is corroding the inside of my carb and it is a QF e-85 carb. I am out here in cali and was woundering if our e-85 is blended differently. I spent 1000 on this carb and now it looks like I my have to go back to Race Gas. I can not be removing this carb and cleaning it the day before every race.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 567 Location: Central Wisconsin

gelling?

I have never seen this. Look upstream in your fuel system-- what components are likely to contain something that could be dissolving such as lining in fuel cell or the glue inside a fuel filter.

What is the color and consistency of this gel?

What are you storing fuel in and for how long?

Are you in the wetter north part of Calif? How is the storage container sealed and how old is this fuel?

Did you add anything to the E85?

SatngerX · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 8

It is like a yellowish jelly it clogs the carb in a week or two. I have a rci fuel cell braided aeroquip fuel lines QFT dominator. It clogs it so bad it leans out. Also the carb is totally corroded white and starting bubble.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 812 Location: Colorado

ATL recommends frequent examination of fuel cell foam and bladders to ensure they are compatible with ethanol. Older fuel cells and some off brands fuel cells may have issues.

First thing I would do is open up the fuel cell, and make sure the foam is not degrading. Some fuel cell foams and some fuel cells designed for methanol may not like ethanol.

Do you have any fiberglass tanks or components in the fuel system.
Clean dry E85 should not do that. It is known that some fuel system additives are not compatible with ethanol, do you (or did you in the past) use fuel system additives like octane enhancers, fuel injector cleaners etc.?
Do you spike your fuel with toluene, xylene, acetone or other chemicals to "improve it"? Do you use fuel system lubricants?

I suspect you have a contaminant in the fuel system.
The white powder in the carb is likely corrosion from water or acid in the fuel.

Check the fuel system especially the bladder and foam in the fuel cell and any fuel filters you have, pull a sample of your fuel and get it tested for water content or acid level (PH test). If it appears to be contaminated, flush the fuel system and put in a small amount of clean fuel and keep an eye on it.

We have seen almost no problems with clean E85, the number of people running it and the extremely small number of complaints suggest you have some isolated issue you need to figure out.

The only well documented issue with E85 or ethanol added fuels are in some older boats that used fiberglass fuel tanks that had resins in the fiberglass that dissolved in the fuel. Unless you are running a boat, that should not be an issue, unless your fuel was stored improperly at some time in the past.

Did you buy the fuel recently?
How long have you been running this setup?

Give us a bit more info on the fuel system history and the build you have?

The best protection for carburetors and ethanol regarding corrosion is to get the carb body anodized, but lots of folks are running off the shelf carbs on E85 with no problems.

One other possibility is that your supplier for E85 did not properly clean out their ground tank before switching to E85, and it is a local fuel contamination problem with your supplier.

Larry

Drag Chevette · Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 443

I have not seen this even in the QFT stuff that I tweaked....

Im thinking its bad fuel or something is being mixed with the fuel....as Hotrod suggested.

I did see a little funny stuff in the bowl once and concluded it was the sticky adhesive from the bolts in a QFT kit. (they tape them together)

have you tested your fuel to see the percentage? ( I sell testers)

sounds to me like it is holding ALOT of water in it for your stuff to be corroding like it is....thats NOT normal.

as for your carb going lean.....Im thinking its not from the E85 but from the third circuit that QFT uses in their carb.
everyone that I know of that has a QFT dominator has had to jet it higher....much higher.....as in 105-107 square.....not the 97 square they send in the carb.

if you want me to look your E85 carb over and see whats going on and if indeed in fact it is the carb or something else, I can do that.....call me at 573 694-4088 ~ mark
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393bird · Joined: 20 Dec 2007 Posts: 31 Location: Tennessee

E85 wicks up a lot of moisture if exposed to the air. Most guys I know that run it pull a screw from the float bowls and drain them when they are parked for more than a couple of days, then leave the fuel pump off and fire it up pumping the pedal to empty the accelerator pumps. They also close off there fuel cell vents to prevent the cell from drawing in moisture.

I have found that adding 1/2 once of Stable for each 5 gals of E85 will prevent the problem in most cases. With me running a SC with a carb enclosure, draining the bowls is not a option. For parking it for long periods like Winter, I added a 1 gal cell and small pump, and use it to fill the carb with gas.

Here is the auxiliary cell, feed to the carb, and cell vent ball
valve.

The 1 gal cell can be used as a reserve gas tank in the Summer. Handy with E85 stations being far between here in
Tennessee. Smile

A good high flow filter that removes moisture would also help if the E85 has it from the station. Hereis a very good one.

http://www.ramcoperformance.com/flomax.htm
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393 Stroker, Vortech YSi
Lentech Strip Terminator trans
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SatngerX · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 8

The first thing I do is pull the foam out of a drag fuel cell. I dont have any foam the tank is plastic Rci I think. I drained all the fuel out, it was yellowish/brown I think somthing is detiererating. As for the jets in the quick fuel 1150 they were 94s maybe to small. but it was leaning out at an idel also. It had this yellow jell in the base plate almost all full. maybe the fuel lines are bad or the tank is desolving but all fuel is yellowish/brown pointing at the tank maybe.

Drag Chevette · Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Posts: 443

i wonder if its eating the gasoline coating from the inside of the tank?

rci cell should be good and the foam should NOT deteriate......i have had mine in the cell for 6 years....

try buying some E85 from a different station and see if its better.....

maybe someone else could answer this but what would the fuel look like if the transport hauled it in a diesel container?.....wouldnt the Diesel contaminate the fuel with a yellow brownish gunk?

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 567 Location: Central Wisconsin

Since you seem to have located the issue all the way back to the fuel cell, storage container (if the is one), or fuel supplier- one other item I considered (but rule out given the current info on table) was a bad fuel pump. A gent on another forum had complained of a white powder building up in his fuel system and injectors plugging -- after a month or so he came back to the forum with the issue discovered- his Aeromotive fuel pump magnet glue had let go--an isssue that was also known to be a problem with gasoline. Granted you are not likely using such a pump but sometimes odd stuff happens.

Flush out that fuel system real good.

If possible get a look at any fuel you put into this car by visual test in a clean glass jar. E85 blended with natural gasoline should be water clear-full of "sparkle" in the sun. E85 blended with reg gasoline may have very very slight yellow tinge but should also sparkle in the sun. Anything that is not clear and "bright" (sparkle) do not even think of using. A converted station tank not properly cleaned first will shed the years of gums and moisture buildup all in the first fill or 2. Make sure that is not what happened to you. The same thing happens on a smaller scale in your own fuel system. Proper filters help but are not the sole answer.

As International Harvester used to put in their tractor fuel caps--" Buy clean fuel- keep it clean". This is true for ANY fuel type.

skiracer · Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:22 pm Post subject:

There was a gas station in Norcal that was recently tested with 50% ethanol in its "e85" pumps....
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SatngerX · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 8

I got the fuel at the cheveron on A street in hayward ca. That station had all new tanks installed before they started carrying the e85. I have on way of testing it to see how pure it is. What if I put a desicant filter on the fuel vent to keep out the mosture.

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 567 Location: Central Wisconsin

All new tanks are good-- now as long as they did not have some mold release (fiberglass) or oil for corrosion prevention (mild steel) in them.
This has never been a problem for me with station tanks but when i was in the tankwagon business 500 and 1,000 gallon tanks were often made six months ahead and left sitting out. Thus they were often oiled to prevent corrosion but commonly the bungs had plastic temp covers that would pop out and rainwater would get in. This is not a likely problem in your situation but always a remote possibility.

SatngerX · Joined: 03 Jul 2009 Posts: 8

Fuel I put in the tank was perfectly clear and now it comes out yellowish

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 567 Location: Central Wisconsin

Ok- can you isolate where the fuel first is yellowed (ie fuel cell)?

The yellow is not likely water related. Water in E85 will make it murky- not "bright" or "sparkle". You would not even see it until you got tons of it in and phase separation occured (extremely rare with E85 because of the amount and time this would take to occur).

Water might be more of a concern is very moist atmospheric conditions (think e85 with weeks of air exposure in Houston or New Orleans)- this is why I asked you originally what part of California you are in. In a much shorter time though- concern would come from areas of the carb where liquid and air meet while just sitting. "Wet" e85 in the carb would not be good. Moisture gain in denatured ethanol is slower than what people think- at least to the levels they assume they are getting. Denatured ethanol can be stored for months w/o water gain but air exchange must be limited. Not sure if the dessicant you propose would have any stronger affinity for water than ethanol so it might not work. Taping off the vent would work but will lose a race or an engine if you forget to remove it.

I think for now focus on what is dissolving- which very well could just be old gasoline gums and hopefully not tank materials.

Thumpin455 · Joined: 04 Oct 2008 Posts: 220

Lower than 180 proof is where problems with corrosion start, that is 10% of the fuel being water. So if you have a 10 gallon tank, an entire gallon is water, right? Any idea how long it takes to soak up a gallon of water? Gasoline is nowhere near as receptive to water as ethanol, and with gasoline it will separate and you can get a slug of water in the line/carb and it wont run. Ethanol will run pretty well all they way down to 160 proof, that is 20% water content, although it will have an appetite for bare aluminum at that proof. Lower proofs will still run, just not great.

The point of that is water isnt a huge concern with higher blends of ethanol, lower blends it is a concern because the more gasoline the less water the ethanol can soak up. If you put a quart of ethanol with a quart of water, you dont get a half gallon of fuel, you get less because of how the two work together.

My thinking on the sludge in the bowl is from contamination, or from something they are putting in the E85 before you get it. If someone wants to discontinue selling E85, they could add something and it would appear the fuel was the problem. It has happened before, not saying that is what it is now. But something upstream from the carb is putting the yellow sludge in it.

I dont do anything special with my fuel or carbs, the GTO has sat out all year and it still starts and runs on E85 I put in last year. The carb hasnt ever shown corrosion and its a plain old Qjet from 1976.
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1970 Pontiac GeTOh 455 with a Qjet.
1998 Pontiac Formula LS1 on yeast pee.