E85Forum.com

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

<the rant...>

I feel a little bit of necessity to try and organize some kind of list of ethanol conversion parts for late model cars. I think factories have that list, they just haven't revealed it yet. So, hacks must use their brains and guts to find a solution....sorta like a factory engineer who gets PAID to do just that first. The factory doesn't give you "everything" first. There's money to be made afterward and some factories/dealerships have caught on to that more than others. They could make a good bit of money off of ethanol conversions in parts and labor both. WHY give you the ability to do it right off the showroom floor if it's not necessary? Because it's less money up front and more money later out of the same supply of cash--Yours. (It's survival, not a scam.)

A systemwide fuel change wasn't really needed up until now. It's not like any corporate or business entity to NOT plan ahead. Automotive factories, aerospace companies, and the government have all planned and tested for the end of oil as we know it. But, it was still a test scenario at the time. It's gradually coming true. Most consumers just haven't been told.Could there be viable alternatives to gasoline? Certainly! How to get them into use is a bigger question. What do we do in the meantime? Try and make transitions as easy as possible.

I've got some drawing and engineering ability, but there's far more people out there better at it than I am. I knew enough that gasoline wasn't the end of the road. But, where were the options? Nitromethane? Keep dreaming, n00b! Methanol? No--too corrosive. Propane? Gaseous fuel in a luquid pumping setup woldn't work too easily. Ethanol? Doesn't make as much power as the others, but it's still a hell of a lot better than gas. It also runs in the existing fuel system of several existing vehicles being that it's a liquid to be pumped and metered.

E85 looks more and more like a promising alternative, and I'm still late in the game with it. Someone thought of it waaaaay before I did. Things are working too well in my car already for this to be a coincidence. I honestly DON'T think I'm onto anything NEW. Could it really be as easy as swapping in a few off-the-shelf parts? Could factories and governements have been planning ahead for change without telling you? It's not impossible. It just sounds a little far-fetched. No one planned for it with the intent to hurt anyone like most conspiracy theories go. They've planned for it to make it EASIER. Being "forced" to use E85 once the parts conversion is done doesn't sound so bad after showing exceedingly pleasant power gains. I really doubt there's any coincidence in that you can use this fuel in some later model cars that don't exactly "label it for sale" that way.

I'm no real scientist. My math/chemistry skills suck semi-often. But, I'm intuitive with some experience and willing to trust that. Doubt is always there when pushing new boundaries. It's part of the risk. Having driven on it in my modified car, E85 just rules. Gasoline sucks to no end compared to this stuff. I went back to using it for a bit until my conversion is done. It just sucks. It's SLOW!!! What can I do once I have a good fuel and what do I have to look out for while tuning with it? Since it works this good already and the car isn't 100% tuned on it, what lies ahead? Corrosion of the system looks unlikely, at least for my Subaru.

<the tech stuff>

The recipe for an E85 swap shouldn't be different from any other car that already has the right fuel lines, fittings, and tank. Once the tank, fittings, and fuel lines can handle the alcohol from the factory, the little peripherals shouldn't be hard to replace. There's different volumes of either fuel going through the same system. Running both is harder than running one or the other. Gimme E85. I'm sold and can't get switched to it fast enough.

Consider 3 pieces for an ethanol conversion to a late model car. 3 pieces that would be requirements, still leaving room for tuning. All 3 deal with being able to get enough fuel into the mix to burn well. I think most stock systems just weren't released with the right peripherals. Auto Factories have tested all their cars on ethanol already. You just never hear about factory skunk-works in the press much.

1. A rising rate fuel regulator.

The ability to adjust fuel pressure is a good thing. You can get a "generic" one for usually $250 or less. The point is getting more fuel into the chamber at all times. The richer mixture of alcohol requires it.

2. High volume fuel pump.

Ethanol requires a richer mixture than gas. Almost twice as much. It won't get there without a bigger pump. If the fuel lines can handle the fuel, the it's just a matter of volume. Again, the peripherals on the ends need the attention.

3. Larger Injectors or Multiple injectors.

Ideally, we'd like something we could drop in place of the stock equipment IF it needs replacing. Adding secondary injectors is a pain. Replacing stock parts is way easier. More than likely, you need bigger injectors. More fuel pressure can do A trick but maybe not THE trick. We'll find out. But easing the restriction lets more fuel in easier without high pressures. High pressures can cause leaks and injector failures. It compensates for having a restriction that shouldn't be there. There's room to tune with fuel pressure, but not as much as with larger injectors or secondaries. Secondaries are more complex, but allow for increased power output when you use the fuel correctly.

4. Reprogram the computer

This may or may not be needed as much as being icing on the cake. Newer ECU's do learn, but still within preset parameters. With a better fuel that's more resisitent to knock, we can push a few boundaries that we can't on overpriced pump gas.

That's IT. (????)

Off the shelf parts to convert to ethanol? I don't know for sure until I get done playing with my new fuel regulator and fuel pump. Larry's done it on his WRX, but with larger injectors. I'd run those too, but I'm short on options for my RS. Some of you guys have run it with minor mods on other vehicles. But, those mods aren't listed anywhere convenient.

<..the "slight return"...>

AFTER I get it running on this stuff...what can I mess with? Well. For one, the physics don't change much. It's the chemistry we've messed with. Cheifly, I can run more boost or higher compression. Heck, you can raise compression AND boost on E85, methanol, Natural Gas, or Propane. Old school gasoline permitted some ridiculous power levels out of fairly simple engines. We can get BACK to that with running E85. It's entirely possible to have too much power out of a car with very little done to it. A compression bump to near 16:1 can be done on this stuff. Boost levels can go near 45-50lbs. You can STILL run nitrous with it, too! You just have to be able to dump in a boatload of it. Stock vehicles converting to it need the same parts as high performance cars. Somehow or another, it needs more fuel. I need more E85!

..I need more sleep too. Which I'm gonna go get now. I'll add more to this later, believe it or not. In short, please put up a list with tuning requirements and ramifications for switching to E85.
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.

specialgreen · Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:37 pm Post subject:

I'd love to have a list of car models, and what might be done. In some cases, you might be able to make good guessed for 75% of a manufacturers models, based on experiences of a handful of testers.

I could see this sort of How-To breaking down into two categories: "high performance" and "minimum cost". For high performance, you may want higher-flow injectors, higher fuel pressure (pump plus regulator), and then raise the compression and change timing.

For "minimum cost", you'd probably start with just boosting pressure (probably a couple hundred dollars?). There is also a black-box+wiring harness from http://www.abcesso.com/ that claims to let you run E85 with no mechanical changes, for $275 (6-cylinder)... I'm skeptical, but curious.

imprezarsc · Joined: 29 Jun 2005 Posts: 87

I filled up on E85 again yesterday. This time with a 255 walbro fuel pump installed. It seems to run rich with a full throttle bog if I'm not mistaken. The snappiness that was there isn't there now. It was much more responsive but still lean. Fuel pressure is at 55psi in the rails with the new pump, too. 1 heat range hotter than stock plugs are going in next. It feels now like it used to with the 1 range colder plugs and too much fuel on gas. The pedal feel resembles that now. I used to have the fuel pump in without enough airflow mods. It ran toooo rich and fried the o2 sensors and cats. Even on gas with more airflow now, it still ran rich on gas with the new pump installed.

It needs some more miles put on it to see if the CEL comes back. It used to come on with the a/c turned on. It wanted to die at idle running the a/c before the pump, but doesn't any more. I can turn all the accessories on and it doesn't hardly skip a beat. The plugs show a lean condition with a white color. The ECU's fuel trim code and the dyno's exhaust sensor confirmed that while running on E85. The existing stock heat range plugs aren't very old at all. For the 4k or so miles they were in there, about 1k of it was lean on ethanol. She needs new plug wires, too. They'll come shortly.
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http://www.grantouringlabs.com My ethanol conversion and tuning site.