E85Forum.com

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

If this is true- it will turn conventional wisdom upside down and lower the cost of ethanol production? Why did Brazil let themselves get talked into also making anhydrous ethanol for blending into gas? Did we also make a mistake here in the USA where it is all anhydrous? This should be an easy thing to replicate in a lab- place wet ethanol into gas and look for phase separation) instead of the reverse of mixing anhydrous ethanol into gas and pouring water in until phase separation occurs- i will try this soon. This could explain why 200 proof will quickly absorb water from the air but adding denaturant (gas) sharply drops absorption.

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=3981&q=&page=all

enyawix · Joined: 29 Mar 2008 Posts: 130 Location: Tennessee

Hydrous ethanol is harder to ignite. The 13:1 compression radio ethanol likes, is hard on the ignition system as it is. People are running spark plug gaps of .35 on powerful ignition systems as it is.
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hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

I think one of the issues that force conventional wisdom to stay away from hydrous ethanol is that back in the 1970's when home brewers were running home brew fuel, some of them were producing fuel that was high in acetic acid content.

I am not sure that people made the connection that a lot of the corrosion was due to trace acid content vs just the water.

It would be interesting to know what the typical PH of home brew wet ethanol was for the average home brewer. Also back then I think most everyone was running higher sulfur blends of gasoline that on combustion produced traces of sulfuric acid in the oil.

Many at that time were also running very lean fuel air mixtures to get good gas mileage which also leads to high NOx production and also leaves trace nitric and nitrous acid in the engine oil.

I wonder how much effort the current anhydrous plants need to put into preventing acid build up in the brew and if the drying process also neutralizes trace acids.

Larry

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

You guys bring up some valid points. I wonder though if hydrous could be used in a blend with 15-30% gasoline though if that would offset a lot of the hard ignition issues. To date hydrous was generally used as straight ethanol.
Today's lube base oils and components are much improved over the old '70s lubes. Today oil analysis is also more common. I could see though that a short trip daily driver in cold weather could require special attention- maybe not the best for some consumers.

Larry- anhydrous ethanol plants do not normally have any difficulties in meeting the sulfate and ph ASTM spec. If fact this one reason why they use the ultra low sulfur denaturant- hydrocarbon's generally carry with them too much to meet the oil company specs for ethanol that is going into gas (ironic). The acidity from corn fermentation goes with the solids as a rule.
I will see if our lab has a sample from the last effect or distillation prior to the mol sieves.

hotrod · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 872 Location: Colorado

Or maybe only a 5% blend to denature it?
There are also differences between various hydrocarbons. As I recall, the aromatics like toluene act as cosolvents and assist with water retention in the mix. I would also wonder if small additions of other chemicals might assist like perhaps small additions of acetone or other highly flammable chemicals that were a bit more water tolerant.

Who knows there might be some blend that will hold substantial water even at cold temps, I rather doubt anyone has seriously perused that concept.

Larry

enyawix · Joined: 29 Mar 2008 Posts: 130 Location: Tennessee

Alcohol · Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 634 Location: Central Wisconsin

Gran Touring Labs · Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 129

I'll let you know what my test tubes say Wink

. It won't be a huge batch ofanything, butI'd ike tosee if they even mix. All Denver fuel has 10% ethanol in it already. It would be interesting tosee what hydrous ethanol does in that mix. Some 182 proof Everclear and gasoline in a testtube should do the trick. The third variable is the "alkylates" or whatever they already use to make the 10% blend.

(You don't have to be so subtle, either Wink

)
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TinkerFreaks

Gran Touring Labs · Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Posts: 129

<Spock>

Fascinating...

</Spock>

NONE of these mixtures separated. I was very, very surprised. Test tubes don't lie. We'll see if they hold together after a night in the freezer, but 70 degree ambient temps look good..

20% E85 and 80% Everclear
50% E85 and 50% Everclear
20% E10 and 80% Everclear
50% E10 and 50% Everclear

Y'know guys, I don't mind doing these quick and dirty tests and posting the results. Is it possible that one day I'm going to regret finding out all this stuff? I don't WANT to know federal or corporate secrets or anything like that.

How this kind of work reverberates in the community is undeniably powerful. It's a power I've grown to fear because of the responsibilities involved. Who's to say someone tried this and isn't depending on keeping the specific results quiet? I feel like this stuff changes the world in a very short amount of time.

When I found Oxytane pushes back the water separation barrier, within a month there were other reports of additives doing the same thing. That was AFTER we cracked the memorandum 1A issue using factory parts. Do you see how I'm getting nervous about finding all of this stuff out? Stepping on billion dollar toes would make me a marked man.
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mus302 · Joined: 12 Jan 2008 Posts: 3 Location: Knoxville, TN

From what I understand, E10 will phase separate when the water volume reaches .5% at 60 degrees. If hydrous ethanol at 4% water were mixed into E10 that would mean that the volume of water would be .4% so it wouldn't have much additional carrying capacity. A lot of care would have to be taken to make sure that no additional water were introduced at any point.

The EPA put out a paper some time back on phase separation with oxygenated fuels that is pretty interesting.

Water Phase Separation in Oxygenated Gasoline (PDF)