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Psionic
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Fenwick, Ontario
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 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: Preheating the Fuel |
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I'm currently working out the bugs in converting my car to ethanol. I'm going high performance, E100 and home brew.
The only road block left is the heat issue. I live in Canada so pre-heating the fuel is big. I know the fuel has to be warmer than 50 C in order to vapourize (E100).
What is the best way to do this? Pre-heat the injectors? Warm up the fuel lines somehow? Maybe something with a block heater? |
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 566
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Are you talking about facilitating cold start or during engine run ?
For cold start you could use a dual fuel setup that squirts a bit of gasoline into the intake manifold to help the engine fire, then run on the ethanol.
The other dual fuel you might consider would be propane.
The other option would be to preheat the intake air, or the fuel with an electrical heater of some sort. Fuel heat obviously has some safety issues so you would want to do it in a way where the fuel absolutely could not be over heated or make contact with a source of ignition.
In a carburator system it is easier to heat the air than it is the fuel because the carburator float bowl would be a huge heat sink and the fuel in it would be cold soaked on start regardless of your efforts to heat the fuel.
Cold start Electric intake air pre-heat could be as simple as drawing the air past several 12 V tail light bulbs, that you turn on for a time before you fire the engine. Or you could build a air pre-heat with a 12 v heater element, of course this would load the electrical system which is working pretty hard in cold weather anyway.
During engine run, you can pre-heat the intake air by drawing the intake air past the exhaust manifold. (many cars already do this so you could find parts at the junk yard if yours does not.
Pre-heat the air or the fuel with the coolant is another option. |
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Psionic
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Fenwick, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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I'm talking about cold starts here. And the target engine is from an Acura RSX.
Should I be worrying about heating the intake air, or the fuel, or both?
Also (a bit off topic), are there any books out there on tuning engines for alcohol use? |
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Psionic
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Fenwick, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Psionic wrote: | | Should I be worrying about heating the intake air, or the fuel, or both? |
A better way of asking this should be, if I'm heat the intake air to something really warm, say, 80 C, would I have to worry about heating the fuel? |
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Psionic
Joined: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 4
Location: Fenwick, Ontario
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| What about installing a few glow plugs in the intake tubing, and run them for a bit before I fire up? |
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specialgreen
Site Admin
Joined: 10 Jul 2004
Posts: 251
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
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| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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I can start and run my motorcycle with nothing but the end of a propane torch hanging over the air intake. You might just connect a propane hose to the airbox, in a way that lets you open and shut the propane from the drivers seat. Open the propane for a few seconds before you start, then shut it off after the intake has warmed-up a bit.
I've also read of running a heating tube along the inside of the intake manifold, when the manifold is long and cold. |
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s8v4o
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| hotrod wrote: | | Pre-heat the air or the fuel with the coolant is another option. |
Only problem there is usually the coolant is COLD when you are starting the motor for the first time. And once the coolant is up to temperature there is no longer a "cold start"
Do the factory "heaters" turn off when the engine is warmed up? |
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Obormot
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 2:31 am Post subject: |
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i working on this problem too 
http://e85forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=743
stock flex fuel motors using heaters for fuel ramp.
i think we need to see one of it to know, how did it works.
i think that it can be some electric "warming wire", fixed on fuel ramp, and temp. sensor, holding temp. about 50-60 C |
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89shortbox
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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How about the intake air heater on a new Cummins, or Duramax diesel.
Both use the only and dont have glowplugs. I dont know the diesign but it might be worth looking into.
_________________
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89 S10
406 SBC D1SC Blowthru Carb
Going E85 this coming season
HAHA, the season is alreay here. |
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Obormot
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| have you photo, or drawing, or description of those air heaters? |
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89shortbox
Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 58
Location: Michigan
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Obormot
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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I thought they invented something new
those heaters are not good, becouse:
1. heater from this diesel is placed between intake collector and MAF sensor. it must warm up all input air from 0...-10...-20 C to at least +15 C adn quickly - and simultaneously with running starter... you need a very big battery. it takes about 50-80 AMPs, and starter takes a lot... there is a much cheaper solution and there is no need in electric power at all: bimetallic thermostat. it takes hot air near the output collector, cold air from outsid, mix it and automatically holds temp about 25-30 C. it used on old carb cars, there is a link, but it on russian... i think drawings explains all:
http://acat.autodealer.ru/index.php?tree=8_717
part number is 2108-1143010
but it start work after the engine starts and output collector warms up.
2. when starter turns on, on first 2-3 rotations cold air, which already was inside collector and not warmed by heater, will comes into engine, and only after 2-3 rotations warmed air will come into cylinders, full of not vaporised fuel from previous injections. spark plugs will be wet and we maybe can not start engine at all.
so, we must PREHEAT air, not HEAT.
heater must be inside intake collector, at its lowest point. heated air will go up, cold will go down - and we will have warmed air in all volume of intake collector.
we turn preheater on BEFORE starter and wait 5-30 sec (depends from outside temp). it may be not very powerful - battery will not be overloaded. when preheater turns off, we can start the engine - volume of warmed air in intake collector is - 2-5 liters - it will be enough to 2-3 rotations ant it will be enough for start up the engine.
and Duramax Diesels has glowplugs. intake air heaters is additional option.
PS sorry, my english is not very good.
PPS or we can warm up the fuel. |
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Obormot
Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 12
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hotrod
Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 566
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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Or you can simply delay fuel injection until the engine has cranked over 2-3 revolutions and has pulled the warmed air into the intake manifold.
Larry |
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Etalappen
Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
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